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« : 26 de Julio de 2011, 21:04:54 »

Aqui os dejo unos articulos muy interesantes, de los cambios que son necesarios realizar en cualquier helicoptero que se quiera utilizar para F3C (evidentemente solo aplica en helicopteros que no esten diseñados para F3C).



Mixing Ratios and Delta
 
Flybar Ratios
If you are running a flybarless system then you might as well stop reading now.

The majority of RC helicopters on sale run a Bell/Hiller system to control the main rotor head. What this means is that the swashplate connects directly to the main blades (Bell) AND directly to the flybar system (Hiller). Not only that but the swashplate to main blade connection goes via a mixer system on the flybar which allows the flybar to have an influence on blade pitch (hence Bell/Hiller).

Because of this connection going via the flybar to the main blades you have probably heard the term "flybar ratio" or "bell ratio" and that you should increase or decrease this ratio. But what is this ratio and what is the effect of raising it or lowering it.. and what's a good value anyway?

The flybar is essentially a stabilisation device that feeds into the main blades. Therefore the more input the flybar has into the main blades then the more powerful the effect of the flybar system. In my earlier article about paddles I talked about the effect of different sizes and weights of paddles.. well this translates also on to the bell ratio. If a gust of wind hits the model and it has a very low bell ratio then the model will react like it has very heavy blunt paddles and move with the wind. If you have a high bell ratio then the model will react to the gust like it has light weight aggressive paddles and lean into the gust.

When we talk about the ratio we mean the number of degrees of blade movement for each degree of flybar movement. Traditionally most machines are about 1 degree of flybar to 0.7 degrees of blade movement.

In theory therefore you would want to run as high a ratio as possible until the model starts over correcting for wind gusts. However as with all things helicopter orientated it isn't as simple as that depending on your flying style.

The flybar as mentioned earlier is a stabilisation device. Therefore the higher you go on the ratio the more stable the machine will feel but also the less "snappy" on the controls as the flybar fights back against your control inputs.

Therefore most 3D pilots like to run a low bell ratio to make the model as reactive as possible. The downside being that the machine is badly effected by gusts of wind and suffers large trim changes.

F3C pilots like to run near to 1:1 ratio so that the model will sit nearly hands off in the wind no matter which direction the wind hits the model from.

Generally therefore as a basic rule of thumb the heavier and more docile the paddles you run the higher the bell ratio you will want. The lighter and more aggressive the paddles the less ratio.

Yet.. there is another BUT..

As the mixing arm is moved by flybar input and swashplate input it means as you adjust the ratio your pitch range will also change. Generally the higher the ratio the less blade pitch range you will have.

To know what your bell mixer looks like there are 4 types of mixers that I can think of from the top of my head.

1) Blade Grip. The mixer is quite short and sits on the blade grip leading edge and is 90 degrees to the flybar. Vibe 50, Aurora, Xcell.

2) Trailing. The mixer is longer and connects to the trailing edge of the blade grip and runs parallel to the flybar from one side of the head to the other.. Align, JR Airskipper, Raptor.

3) Leading. The mixer connects to the leading edge of the blade grip and runs parallel to the flybar and does not go from one side of the head to the other. Knight 3D, Hirobo Freya Evo and Scedeau Evo.

4) Right Angle. The mixer connects to the leading edge of the blade grip and runs at 90 degrees to the flybar. Kyosho Caliber & My Aurora!

Delta.
Leading on from the bell mixer we get to Delta 3 mixing.

What this refers to is how the blade reacts to unwanted external inputs.

Now for years we talked about Delta as being either positive or negative.. but could never decide which was which as people had different definitions. Therefore it is generally referred to as "correcting" or "uncorrecting" Delta.

How Delta mixing works (or features on your model) is dependent on where the blade grip control point (ball) is in relation to the pivot point of the spindle. On the JR Vigor the ball control point was inline with the center of the head and that model featured a center teeter point. Therefore there was no Delta introduced into the rotorhead. On most other models the ball control point is short of the center teeter point of the head (if the head has a center teeter point!) and depending on whether the grip is leading or trailing means you end up with correcting or uncorrecting delta. This is because as the spindle pivots the blade grip control ball is moving up or down as well as it is not inline with the pivot point. Therefore the pitch on the blade will change.

WIth correcting delta as the blade flaps up the delta effect will reduce the blade pitch to try to bring the blade back down.

With uncorrecting delta the opposite happens and it will try to force the blade up.

Brilliant.. lets all run maximum correcting delta. Not so fast! As mentioned in my swashplate timing article everything on a helicopter happens 90 degrees out of phase. Therefore with any correcting or uncorrecting adjustment it will be happening 90 degrees too late and therefore making the rotor disk unstable.

For general sport or 3D flying it is generally thought that 0 degree delta is the best choice.

However for F3C things get a little more interesting. For F3C hovering uncorrecting delta may be better for the model. The reason for this is that the delta actually has an effect on the body of the model more than the blades. Imagine the model is hovering in front of you with the nose of the machine pointing left and the wind in your face. As the wind hits the model the blade disk stays pretty much where it was but the body moves towards you a little causing the machine to roll right slightly into the wind. As the advancing blade over the canopy rises in the extra lift generated by the wind the uncorrecting delta will exaggerate this movement. As the effect will only happen 90 degrees later the force will be applied when the blade is inline with the wind and furthest from you.. therefore pulling up and rotating the body of the model back to level!

As you can see.. to get a model setup "perfectly" requires a balancing of all the aforementioned items.

The order I go about setting any machine up for F3C is the following:

1) Choose the heaviest set of paddles and shortest flybar I can that still gives me a good roll rate. (on a 90 that is 40g and 490mm)

2) Adjust the bell ratio until the model will not move forwards or backwards when pointing into wind in the hover. (1:1)

3) Adjust the delta mixing so that in a cross wind the model also stays level and resists movement as much as possible. (Small amount of uncorrecting).

4) Adjust swashplate timing so that model reacts cleanly to control inputs. e.g. forwards means forwards and not forwards and left!

With this I can hover my model in any direction in any wind and it will almost stay there on its own and not suffer any trim changes. However in aerobatics it still has enough control authority to do a reasonably fast flip at maximum cyclic deflection AND have around 22 degrees of pitch range. The machine will also roll and loop dead straight without any mixing in the transmitter (so long as the washout phasing can be adjusted mechanically!).

For my 3D machine I would do exactly the same except I would run lighter paddles and less bell ratio.




Flybar Paddles


Paddles ...what they are.. why we have them.. and how flybar weights and flybar lengths come in to play.

Introduction
Back in the dark ages when we first started making model helicopters the designers had 2 types of rotor head control mechanisms to try from the full size counterparts, Bell or Hiller.

With the Bell system there were either weights or hydraulics on the head to create a form of damping. The controls directly controlled the main rotor blades with the weights/hydraulics making the responses sensible.

On the Hiller system there were mixing levers and paddles much like our models to create the damping effect. The controls connected directly to the paddles/flybar and this in turn controlled the main rotor blades. For the historians out there there was also the Lockheed system.. but that was quite complex.. and not relevant here.

The Bell system was typically quite fast in response but low in over all control power.

The Hiller system was slower in its responses but had better control power.

Model designers soon realised that a pure Bell system wasn't completely workable at our small scale and we soon ended up with the system we have today which is a mix of Bell and Hiller. On 90% of models out there we control the main blades directly as well as the paddles.

At this point I would like to point out that I haven't mentioned stability once. Paddles have no effect on the models stability. Paddles affect the response rate (to either pilot input or external inputs) and control power of the rotor system not the stability of the rotor system.

Now back to the Hiller system.. as I mentioned earlier the controls affect the paddles and the paddles in turn then affect the main blades. Therefore the paddles have quite a large part in the control of your rotor disk. e.g. your roll rate!

There are 4 things you can do with paddles to change how they control your rotor disk:

1) Size

2) Weight

3) Section

4) Distance (flybar length)

I'll deal with them in that order.

Size
As they are aerodynamic devices then clearly as you increase the size of the flybar then the more powerful it will become. For example something like Stubz paddles need you to have your control deflections set to maximum because they are so small and need all the help they can get.

Weight
The heavier something is the more effort is needed to move it. Heavier paddles have a lower response rate and lower overall power.

Section
A paddle with a thin sharp section will "grab" the air more and hence accelerate more quickly. A fat blunt paddle will be more gradual in its response.

Distance
The further away from the rotor head you put the paddle the more air it is moving through and therefore as it is an aerodynamic device the more power it will have.

Paddle Selection
I would say the only type of paddle you really want to stay away from are those with a very thin section and long leading edge as they are so aggressive that the model will experience lots of "pitching" effects in fast forward flight as the section "grabs" the air.

As paddles control how the rotor system responds to inputs (both pilot and external..eg. wind..) we ideally want a system that responds to external inputs with an equal and opposite output. In simple terms a gust of wind should not make the model move off the spot it is hovering (in an ideal world). If when your machine is hit by a gust of wind it moves down wind away from the gust then your flybar is not responsive enough. If your model moved forward into the wind then it is over responsive. Clearly you can control these by changing the factors listed above.

Note. Changing the section of the paddles will not change the overall control power of the paddles but just the initial control response.

Generally paddles designed for 3D are light weight with a sharp section to give a fast and powerful response.

Paddles designed for F3C are large and heavy with a blunt section. This gives them good control power but a slower response rate.

Flybar weights can be used to tune the paddles. They have exactly the same effect as changing the weight of the paddles themselves. The more weight the slower the response rate and the lower the control power. In conclusion.. if your roll rate is too low then lighten your paddles or fit a longer flybar. If your model is "pitchy" on the elevator in fast forward flight then change to paddles that are fatter in section. Generally I leave flybar length as per the original manufacturer design as it's probably the least effective of all the options. Weight and size are the prime candidates for changing.                  
« Última modificación: 13 de Octubre de 2018, 21:16:28 por madcortina » En línea

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« Respuesta #1 : 27 de Septiembre de 2011, 19:55:55 »

una duda muy tonta para todos los que andais en el F3C: pq no hay helis flybarless entre los f3c? imagino que les ganarían velocidad al tener más potencia no? o es que por normativa no se permiten los flybarless? Gracias
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« Respuesta #2 : 27 de Septiembre de 2011, 20:00:47 »

Por normativa solo se permite ayuda electrónica del gyro de cola, ningún sistema electrónico más que estabilice el heli.
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« Respuesta #3 : 28 de Septiembre de 2011, 14:37:15 »

ok, me imaginaba que era eso, pq imagino que con un flybarless se le quita toda la gracia a la fase de estacionarios.
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« Respuesta #4 : 28 de Septiembre de 2011, 15:12:56 »

Claro, piensa que un heli para F3C tiene que tener muchisima estabilidad y el mando justo en las maniobras de estacionario y a la vez tener otra estabilidad y mando completamente distinta para las maniobras es traslacion. En definitiva se trata, casi, de tener 2 helis en uno en cuando a configuracion se refiere. Cosa que en el 3D no pasa.

Un saludo.
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« Respuesta #5 : 10 de Mayo de 2012, 23:05:43 »

hola muchachos, tengo el trex 600E pro que viene con el rotor configurable para f3c, quiero aprender estacionarios, pero no logro hacer que se quede quieto, pordrian darme las curvas de paso y aceleración que necesito? tengo la aurora 9. y he puesto algunas pero aun esta algo nervioso a los ligeros palanqueos, he puesto todos los exponenciales a -30 pero aun asi lo encuentro algo nervioso. ayuda!!!!
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« Respuesta #6 : 10 de Mayo de 2012, 23:09:00 »

Recorta mando en alaveo y profundidad con los D/R
Cambia los dumpers por unos blandos y baja las vueltas
Ademas si tu emisora tiene suficientes puntos, haz una curva de paso con varios puntos en la zona central del Stick, para que puedas aumentar y disminuir el paso muy lentamente.
« Última modificación: 10 de Mayo de 2012, 23:10:41 por madcortina » En línea

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« Respuesta #7 : 10 de Mayo de 2012, 23:11:29 »

Recorta mando en alaveo y profundidad con los D/R
Cambia los dumpers por unos blandos y baja las vueltas
Ademas si tu emisora tiene suficientes puntos, haz una curva de paso con varios puntos en la zona central del Stick, para que puedas aumentar y disminuir el paso muy lentamente.

+1

Iba a comentar lo de suavizar la curva de gas en el punto medio... pero te me has adelantado...
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« Respuesta #8 : 11 de Mayo de 2012, 22:11:18 »

soy novato, antes de entrar a este foro solo tenia el 450 clone, que no arme yo, y una emisora china, programable pero muuuuuuuuyy mala, baje los valores pero que son los dumpers? son los sticks? de la emisora? me podrian dar los valores de pitch? creo que tengo suficientes puntos en la emisora tengo programado 9 ahora mismo. hago hover a medio gas. gracias y un saludo!
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« Respuesta #9 : 11 de Mayo de 2012, 22:15:16 »

Los dumpers son las "gomitas" que van en el yoke del rotor principal, metidas en el eje portapalas.

Los sticks son los "palitos" de la emisora, los joysticks.

Los valores de pitch... pues depende del heli, del tipo de vuelo, de como lo configures... pero si haces el estacionario a medio recorrido del stick está bien.
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« Respuesta #10 : 15 de Mayo de 2012, 11:36:09 »

Hola rodrigo,tengo un trex 600 ESP con el que e participado en F3C,y justamente tengo una autora9,dame tu mail y te mando el programa de la emi. Para que te hagas una idea de como esta configurada para mi heli. Ademas te puedo mandar un programita casero para poder leer los programas en el pc. En el que te salen todas curvas en todos los modos,exp,d/r,vamos,todo visto desde la pantalla del pc.
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« Respuesta #11 : 13 de Octubre de 2018, 16:49:42 »

Buenas!!

Refloto este hilo después de 6 años!! jajajaj...

Esos link que puso Mad han caído ya y me interesa bastante este tema, pues el 3D no me llama nada la atención, en cambio, me gusta mucho el F3C. El heli que uso actualmente no es específico para F3C (Mikado Logo 400SE + XBar), pero imagino que, con ciertos ajustes o configuraciones, podría iniciarme un poco en esto, ¿no?

Hay algún sitio donde poder ojear estos ajustes específicos para F3C?
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« Respuesta #12 : 13 de Octubre de 2018, 21:17:18 »

Hola Bartok, te he actualizado la info de los articulos a los que hacia mencion el post, espero que esto te sirva para adentrarte en apasionante el mundo del F3C
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« Respuesta #13 : 13 de Octubre de 2018, 23:18:54 »

Gracias, Mad!!!
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